bebop artists for transcribing

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swing08
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bebop artists for transcribing

Post by swing08 »

what would be considered good artists and songs to start transcribing to get into bebop with a view to incorporating into gypsy jazz soloing? (nothing too quick preferably). I hear a lot of bebop in modern takes on gypsy standards and wonder who has been the big influence and where to start? any help would be great.

cheers,
S08
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Thrip
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Post by Thrip »

I know you said nothing too quick, but I'd say you would definitely want to transcribe some Charlie Parker. His playing is really the sine qua non of bebop - very arpeggio based, so easy to understand (yet difficult to reproduce!). Also a lot of the chord progression are very similar to GJ, like How High The Moon etc.. If you've got a trascribing program you could just slow it down!
paynej49

Re: bebop artists for transcribing

Post by paynej49 »

I've always wanted to pick up and take a look at the book of guitar transcriptions for Thelonious Monk written by Pat Donahue(guitarist on the radio program Prarie Home Companion). Of course, one must not forget the many books out there(can there ever be enough?)on Charlie Christian who was an influence on Django when he began to enter his "Be Bop" phase as well as Barney Kessel. Also Dizzy Gilespie and Miles Davis.
This is an interesting question to me also. That is to say Be Bop and the direction Django was going to and the things he may have done with the music. From what I've surmized the figure of Rene Mailhes was someone who did quite a bit with Be Bop and I would like to investigate more about him.
The Beatles were not always about teeny boy bands and eventually had to take their music in a new direction.And yet I must say in light of the McCarteny/Heather Mills marriage, did they? And in a way Django's music was not always about Fedora hats and lanky Tin Pan Alley tunes. I even have a tape of Grappelli from a radio program expressing that people must appreciate the fact that one's music must develope.
I suppose that there will always be those who will think of HCQF in terms of the early days. I even have a friend who told me that he didn't think that Django's later amplified music was much good and that it was not meant to be. Just not meant to be. A bit like how some people felt about Bob Dylan going electric, I suppose.
But Django certainly did point the way to the next "thing" and this musical synthesis of Gypsy Jazz and Be Bop is really a very interesting one.
Many bands today are quick to fuse Texas Swing and Django music together because they both swing. But one is a sort of Country music and the other Jazz. And they relate differently to the people from whence they came. One must always keep this in mind.
It's good to examine the mesh of both musics that are Jazz.


cheers,
S08[/quote]
deuxdoigtsgauches
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Post by deuxdoigtsgauches »

I've got a good book I'd recommend called 'Charlie Parker for Guitar'. The guy has worked out the fingerings to take into account the different tones of the different strings to try to imitate Charlie Parker's tone on sax, bit obsessive, but a very good book.

http://www.amazon.com/Charlie-Parker-Gu ... 0793587476
paynej49

Be Bop

Post by paynej49 »

Wow! What a great suggestion for a book!!
And I see that there are other guitar transcription books of the Beboppers available in conjunction with this one.
As it happens I dug out an old CD from my collection last night and started listening to it again. It's called The Immortal Charley Christian (Legacy International CD 373) and it should be in every Jazzers collection as well. On it you will find Dizzy Gillespie and Thelonious Monk jamming away with Christian at Minton's club in Harlem, N.Y. in 1941. All three together!
If the playing is too quick there are Standard Tunes on the CD such as All The Things You Are which could be taken at a slower tempo.
Must get those transcription books!
paynej49

Re: Be Bop

Post by paynej49 »

Or for more Charlie Parker there is the great recording Jazz At Massey Hall featuring Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Bud Powell, Max Roach and Charles Mingus all playing together. Again they do some Standards: All The Things You Are, Embracable You, My Heart Stood Still, etc.
Sorry to be posting to myself but this topic really interests me!
deuxdoigtsgauches
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Post by deuxdoigtsgauches »

On another note, there's Irving Ashby who used to play guitar with Charlie Parker quite a bit, this guy is a duuuuude. He's the guy on 'Jazz at The Philharmonic'. I'm not sure whether you'd say it was swing or bebop, but he plays some crazy stuff especially on I got Rhythm (then again so does everyone else, especially Buck Clayton, Charlie Parker and Lester Young, this has got to be one of my top 5 recordings in any genre).

Jazz at the philharmonic (1946?) is a great album to transcribe from for gypsy jazz, as it's kind of half swing half bebop, right on the cusp there, you've got Sweet Georgia Brown (in F instead of E), I Got Rhythm (in Bflat not D, stuff will work in loads of places like Daphne, Swing 42 etc), Lady be Good and so on, this is a great album) not practicing what I preach here to be honest, I poached a few licks here and there, but haven't got the patience to sit down and transcribe whole choruses. Lester Young is pretty good to poach from as it's a bit easier than Charlie Parker but at the same time has a lot in common as he was his major influence (listen to 'rat race' by lester young you can really hear it), also seems to swing a bit more, more of a dance/party band vibe to it.

Damn, it's such a good album. Also was it Ashby who played on 'Red Cross' or was that someone else?
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Brett
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Post by Brett »

What I would like to hear is a GJ rendition of "Skyliner".
paynej49

Post by paynej49 »

Wow! You're absolutely right!
I've found that I have recordings of I Got Rhythm and JATP Blues and I must say that they certainly are pieces that make someone stop in their tracks and take notice!! I must get some more of that music.
I'll be looking into Red Cross and also Skyliner which are tunes that I haven't heard before.
Also I have ordered the Parker transcription book and also one on Monk so I am looking foreward to going through those.
And I have taken some books out of the library: biographies on Parker and Lester Young, a book called Swing To Bop by Ira Gitler (hopefully it will shed some insight into this intricate topic) and a really good book on the guitar by Norman Mongan called The History of the Guitar in Jazz.
In this last book I read that it was Johnny Smith( "...roots that can be traced back to Reinhardt, filtered through Palmieri and De Arango, to the cool sound of Bauer." ) who was influenced more by Django than Jim Raney who, although he did respect and admire Django, was however more strongly influenced by Parker:
" Raney had a wide-ranging influence among guitarists, who acknowledged him as the link that translated the messages of Parker, Gillespie, and Bud Powell for the guitar. "
Well, I might be putting things too simply here, but I will certainly be looking more into the subject in the days to come.
The question that comes to me in all of this is if one were to translate Be Bop into Gypsy Jazz what is " Gypsy Jazz " in the first place?
And for that I think I will turn to those excellent artcles written by Ted Gottsegen entitled, " Gypsy Jazz or Gypsies Playing Jazz ? " or something like that. I really like his whole approach to the Gypsy Jazz music both in theory and in performance.
Hot Club UK is just the place to take a look at this and thankyou everyone for your wonderful suggestions.
After all, one must know what Gypsy Jazz is in the first place in order to be able to pair it up with Be Bop. Right?
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kimmo
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Post by kimmo »

deuxdoigtsgauches wrote:Also was it Ashby who played on 'Red Cross' or was that someone else?
Tiny Grimes played on Red Cross.

Kimmo
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kimmo
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Post by kimmo »

paynej49 wrote: " Raney had a wide-ranging influence among guitarists, who acknowledged him as the link that translated the messages of Parker, Gillespie, and Bud Powell for the guitar. "
If you're looking for bebop guitar tracks to transcribe, then Raney's work with Getz, Al Haig, etc. in the late 1940s-early 1950s would be a good start. He takes short solos (usually half a chorus); his sound is more close to piano than horns (clean sound, short sustain), so you can separate individual notes easily.

I myself am not a big fan of bebop guitar, however. I think the power and command Charlie Christian had in his playing died with him, and the bebop guitarists took a different approach (more speed and harmonic complexity, but no such punch in rhythm, sound or form). I've only found one other American guitarist from that era that IMO comes close to mr. CC: Teddy Walters (recorded with Coleman Hawkins), but he died even younger than Christian and didn't really get to record much.

My suggestion would be the same as Thrip's: Charlie Parker. He's in my all time top two improvisers list (the other one being...?). Just learning the heads will give you readily usable arpeggios and bluesy phrases and lots of other useful licks and tricks, and as you already know, there are transcription books available, so you don't have to start from scratch.

kimmo
paynej49

Post by paynej49 »

Great! Thanks for your input. And I will be researching Teddy Walters. Sounds intriguing. And also let us not forget the famous picture of Django sitting in with saxaphonist James Moody.
Last edited by paynej49 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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justjack
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Post by justjack »

Brett wrote:What I would like to hear is a GJ rendition of "Skyliner".
Saussois has done it:

Image

at least I assume this is the one you mean...

best,
Jack.
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Brett
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Post by Brett »

justjack wrote:Saussois has done it:
Thank you Jack that's the one. Not bebop as the OP requested I know, but somebody is going to do this one day, Quintette style with two solo guitars playing counterpoint.
It's a great Big Band number which would translate well.
Where's Robin Nolan when you need him?
paynej49

Post by paynej49 »

Not in England. That's for sure.
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