Who's the Daddy Then?

Discussion on Django and his contemporaries

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Who's the Daddy Then?

Post by Teddy Dupont »

This Forum seems to have currently almost died whereas varying degrees of frenzy is taking place elsewhere. So let's see if we can start some discussion here.

The Saga "Jazz à la Gitane 3 CD set contains an interesting mix of performers ranging from brilliant (Django himself) to very pedestrian (no comment). Having now listened to them all several times, I have come to the following conclusions:-

1. Django was head and shoulders above all his contempories.

2. Despite the legendary aura surrounding him, Baro Ferret was actually a rather weak improvisor and his technique significantly behind Django.

3. Other than the Ferret's, the other Django style guitarists of the time did not tend to play in what is now considered to be the "authentic" gypsy jazz style. So is current gypsy jazz really authentic or just incestuous and an internet creation?

4. From these and more particularly other recordings I have, Marcel Bianchi has been underestimated and was at least as good as the Ferrets and probably second only to Django. Unfortunately, he was too much of a chameleon to ever be considered a truly great performer

5. Many of today's players are technically way beyond those of the 30's and 40's although musically much more repetitive. In fact, I would say all the top players of today are technically far superior to any of the early Django followers except the man himself.
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Post by Mac Hack »

Is the Django competition held in the winter or summer olympics? I predict a major scandal of figure skating proportions in regards to the judging.
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Post by DennisC »

i might be flamed for this, but from all the recording of matelo and baro that i've heard , i've always felt their playing was rather weak.... highly original music but as far as playing the instrument goes, just average... but their playing still has that "roots" charm that can always make things enjoyable... their strength was certainly their inventiveness from what i've heard..

sarane ferret (of the few recordings i've heard) on the other hand seemed much closer to django's style than his bros... good melodic (jazzy) ideas, great rhythmic drive, etc....
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Post by DennisC »

also, i really enjoy joseph reinhardt's playing.... sometimes, it can be hard to differentiate him from his brother...

i think the reason why today's players are far less inventive is because they learn too much from within the family (ie within a community that plays more or less the same).....

those who are inventive today are those who have explored different styles or played with jazz musicians outside their circle -> bireli , fapy, angelo, raphael fays... etc...
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Re: Who's the Daddy Then?

Post by Caballero »

Teddy Dupont wrote:
1. Django was head and shoulders above all his contempories.

2. Despite the legendary aura surrounding him, Baro Ferret was actually a rather weak improvisor and his technique significantly behind Django.

3. Other than the Ferret's, the other Django style guitarists of the time did not tend to play in what is now considered to be the "authentic" gypsy jazz style. So is current gypsy jazz really authentic or just incestuous and an internet creation?

4. From these and more particularly other recordings I have, Marcel Bianchi has been underestimated and was at least as good as the Ferrets and probably second only to Django. Unfortunately, he was too much of a chameleon to ever be considered a truly great performer

5. Many of today's players are technically way beyond those of the 30's and 40's although musically much more repetitive. In fact, I would say all the top players of today are technically far superior to any of the early Django followers except the man himself.
1. It was probably due to his ridiculous platforms.
2. Personally, I don't agree with this. In terms of improv. I think Baro came from a different artistic angle. I love his blowing, it's all...angular.
I think his technique was the dogs during the 30's, some of the lines he plays feature ridiculous fingerings, smooth too. Daneli Mineur, La Folle( I do this and I lifted it from two of his versions, motherplucker). I recently heard some very young Boulou which featured him playing almost Dutch style lines, with the same kind of tone too, totally removed from his matured playingstyle. Very unusual to hear. So up yours Teddy , you smelly old sock.
3. I don't give a shit
4.ok
5.Yawnsville, Arizona.
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Re: Who's the Daddy Then?

Post by Caballero »

Caballero wrote: up yours Teddy , you smelly old sock.



:D
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Re: Who's the Daddy Then?

Post by Teddy Dupont »

Caballero wrote: So up yours Teddy , you smelly old sock. :D
Probably your most constructive comment Crabs. :lol: It's nice to have you back.
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Re: Who's the Daddy Then?

Post by TedGottsegen »

Teddy Dupont wrote:This Forum seems to have currently almost died whereas varying degrees of frenzy is taking place elsewhere. So let's see if we can start some discussion here.

The Saga "Jazz à la Gitane 3 CD set contains an interesting mix of performers ranging from brilliant (Django himself) to very pedestrian (no comment). Having now listened to them all several times, I have come to the following conclusions:-

1. Django was head and shoulders above all his contempories.
As a jazz player, for sure...but I think other players that we've heard (and haven't heard!) were probably doing interesting things in their own right.
Teddy Dupont wrote:
2. Despite the legendary aura surrounding him, Baro Ferret was actually a rather weak improvisor and his technique significantly behind Django.
I don't think enough material exists to make an assertion one way or the other in terms of improvisation. As a technician, I think he could've done just about anything that Django did, although I think his style was a little rougher.
Teddy Dupont wrote:
3. Other than the Ferret's, the other Django style guitarists of the time did not tend to play in what is now considered to be the "authentic" gypsy jazz style. So is current gypsy jazz really authentic or just incestuous and an internet creation?
I think the Ferrets (except Sarrane) all played loosely in Django's style. I think of Gypsy Jazz the way I think of regular jazz. You have New Orleans and Trad (early), Swing, Bop, Hard Bop, Soul Jazz, Fusion and todays modern straightahead style. With the exception of soul jazz (or the way I define it) I can find parallels to these same trends in GJ.
Teddy Dupont wrote:
4. From these and more particularly other recordings I have, Marcel Bianchi has been underestimated and was at least as good as the Ferrets and probably second only to Django. Unfortunately, he was too much of a chameleon to ever be considered a truly great performer


To an extent, but I also don't think enough recordings of Bianchi in the Hot Club context exists to make this judgement. He appears to be, but without more recorded examples.... I do think that Joseph Reinhardt was highly underrated, was probably one of the more sophisticated guitarists post Django and was much more of an improvisor than the Ferrets, Bousquet or Tchan-Tchou. Montagne, for all his intensity, is also really underrated.
Teddy Dupont wrote:
5. Many of today's players are technically way beyond those of the 30's and 40's although musically much more repetitive. In fact, I would say all the top players of today are technically far superior to any of the early Django followers except the man himself.
Agreed.

Best,

Ted
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Re: Who's the Daddy Then?

Post by Zoot »

Teddy Dupont wrote:This Forum seems to have currently almost died whereas varying degrees of frenzy is taking place elsewhere. So let's see if we can start some discussion here.
Er humph - sorry I was asleep did someone say something
Deddy Tupont wrote:1. Django was head and shoulders above all his contempories.
You keep banging on about this - perhaps its early stage dimentia, but you are absolutely right. Django is the DB's
Medley Stewpond wrote:2. Despite the legendary aura surrounding him, Baro Ferret was actually a rather weak improvisor and his technique significantly behind Django.
See above
Fredy Youwana wrote:3. Other than the Ferret's, the other Django style guitarists of the time did not tend to play in what is now considered to be the "authentic" gypsy jazz style. So is current gypsy jazz really authentic or just incestuous and an internet creation?
You can blame me for that me thinks
Smelly Farts wrote:4. From these and more particularly other recordings I have, Marcel Bianchi has been underestimated and was at least as good as the Ferrets and probably second only to Django. Unfortunately, he was too much of a chameleon to ever be considered a truly great performer
He was the Bowie of his day
Telly Savallas wrote:5. Many of today's players are technically way beyond those of the 30's and 40's although musically much more repetitive. In fact, I would say all the top players of today are technically far superior to any of the early Django followers except the man himself.
Here here


Can I go back to bed now?
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history, with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.
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Re: Who's the Daddy Then?

Post by Teddy Dupont »

zoot wrote:
Deddy Tupont wrote:1. Django was head and shoulders above all his contempories.
You keep banging on about this - perhaps its early stage dimentia,??
Absolutely not!!!! :shock: - I simply do not want you young turds (or should that be Turks?) with your silly, juvenile, misinformed and tediously superficial ideas to forget the fact. However, the continual dribbling, wearing of pyjama trousers at formal occasions, forgetting why I am in the toilet and then only realising when it is too late to take remedial action may possibly be signs of encroaching senility. :? But I admit nothing and remember very little. 8)
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Post by frater »

I only think that if Django plays Gypsy Jazz then we may as well say that Glenn Gould plays Canadian Bach... :D
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Hmm

Post by bbwood_98 »

Ted wrote:
I think the Ferrets (except Sarrane) all played loosely in Django's style. I think of Gypsy Jazz the way I think of regular jazz. You have New Orleans and Trad (early), Swing, Bop, Hard Bop, Soul Jazz, Fusion and todays modern straightahead style. With the exception of soul jazz (or the way I define it) I can find parallels to these same trends in GJ.

Ted- interesting . . . . I'd like more info about the parallels please.
What about free jazz?- or so called world (brazil, india, you get the idea) jazz? Also isn't mostly todays "straightahead" style mosty a throwback to ideas put forth by people in the 50s-70s (hard bop and "soul" jazz, and a little "free" jazz)? At least mostly as it is marketed here in the Us. . . . .

Django was the man in his day- for sure; Bianchi I don't know to much of . . . . The moderns mostly reapeat ideas- it becomes "Jazz" or technical "Folk" music depending on the philosphy of the player? just an idea . . . please don't rip me up to bad for it!
Cheers,
Ben
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Post by patrick.n »

"... I would say all the top players of today are technically far superior to any of the early Django followers except the man himself."

Could you point me to some evidence of this please? Nothing I've heard from DR suggests that he was technically better than Angelo, Bireli, Stochelo etc...
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Post by Thrip »

Teddy Dupont wrote:1. Django was head and shoulders above all his contempories.

Stratospherically so.
Teddy Dupont wrote:2. Despite the legendary aura surrounding him, Baro Ferret was actually a rather weak improvisor and his technique significantly behind Django.
TedGottsegen wrote:I don't think enough material exists to make an assertion one way or the other in terms of improvisation. As a technician, I think he could've done just about anything that Django did, although I think his style was a little rougher.
I admit I was disappointed in Baro's performances here, and as far as jazz playing goes he appears to be some way behind Django. As Ted says, there just isn't enough evidence to say for sure. What I am sure of is that he had a very original musical mind, "Swing Valses" being one of my all time favourite GJ records.
Teddy Dupont wrote:3. Other than the Ferret's, the other Django style guitarists of the time did not tend to play in what is now considered to be the "authentic" gypsy jazz style. So is current gypsy jazz really authentic or just incestuous and an internet creation?
Was current Gypsy Jazz invented by Stochelo by way of Django?
TedGottsegen wrote:I think the Ferrets (except Sarrane) all played loosely in Django's style.
That's odd, I see Matelo & Baro having more their own styles, whereas I think of Sarane as being the most in thrall to Django.

Teddy Dupont wrote:5. Many of today's players are technically way beyond those of the 30's and 40's although musically much more repetitive. In fact, I would say all the top players of today are technically far superior to any of the early Django followers except the man himself.
In fact Bireli and maybe one or two others are technically superior to Django.
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Post by patrick.n »

Maybe Teddy means that Mr Reinhardt was better if you take into account that he had half as many fingers?
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