Dark Eyes Bb Chord

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Dark Eyes Bb Chord

Postby Campus Five » Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:21 am

I was listening to the '41 version of Dark Eyes, and not hearing the Bb chord in bars 7 and 8, but rather hearing a simple Dm.

Is the Bb chord a new alteration, sort of like all those ii-V's people put in minor swing, or was it there the whole time?
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Dark Eyes Bb

Postby fmason » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:23 pm

Another thing I've noticed about Dark Eyes:

The Bb chord seems to come "early" for the melody. When you finally get to playing Bb and F notes (1/5 of Bb) in the melody, you are already on the Gm! Of course this works because Bb=3rd of Gm and F=dom 7th of G. So it creates a Gm7 feel. When teaching the song to my friend on bass he kept trying to linger on the Bb for this reason.

My Guess:
The Bb is probably a fairly modern interpretation of a very old song that had 3 or even 2 chords originally.
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Postby kcox » Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:33 pm

I'm not sure about that, I've heard some "traditional"--i.e. not jazz--groups play it with the Bb.

Of course, they were gadjos and migh thave picked it up from django.

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Postby Campus Five » Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:49 pm

I'm sure that Bb chord is in fakebooks and sad to say, most jazz musicians just read straight out of that thing with no second thought. There's a fairly famous error on "All the Things You Are" (I think) in the real books and you can immediately tell when somebody doesn't actually know the tune and is just reading.

As far as the trad groups, they might have found it on the jazz et chansons page or in a fakebook.
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Postby TedGottsegen » Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:30 pm

I actually learned the tune with an A#7 and was told by someone who learned a lot from Gypsies told me that the correct chord is Bb because it is implied (as to where it is implied...I forget). I don't know. In hindsight I find that the Bb sounds right to me, but I never hang on it too long anyway because I cycle down to the Gminor.
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Postby kcox » Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:00 am

Ted, that is either one funny typo or one funny smartass comment.

Cheers,

Kevin
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Postby boral » Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:33 pm

It is funny, I have same problem with this chord. I use the playback from Robin Nolan book and IMHO the chord does not seem to fit . I have seen this played with a BbM7and other chords...it looks like it is the Fa note that is "wrong"...I'm looking for an inversion or something else that sounds nicer. Any comments?
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Postby kcox » Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:57 pm

Ditto to the Robin Nolan Bb6/9 not working well at all. Whenever I try playing that along with anyone else it sounds like garbage/sticks out like a sore thumb. My only solution thus far has been to just slide the A7 up, which works fine for all my jam needs.

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Postby nwilkins » Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:11 pm

yeah, a Bb6/ Bb6/9 or Bb7 works best - for Bb6/9 don't use the RNT book voicing but rather this one:

8
8
7
8
8
6

Sub chords that work well going to the Gm6 in this tune are D7b9 or Ebdim
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Re: Dark Eyes Bb Chord

Postby kimmo » Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:08 pm

Campus Five wrote:I was listening to the '41 version of Dark Eyes, and not hearing the Bb chord in bars 7 and 8, but rather hearing a simple Dm.


You're right, there's no Bb in '41, it's really just Dm instead. However, the '47 version - the most famous solo, quoted by Bireli, Stochelo, Dorado... - does have that Bb.

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Postby kcox » Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:13 am

Dennis showed me a cool set of voicings for this ditty today, which is basically like the RNT changes except that instead of the typical A7 he plays a diminished like this...

E x
A 4
D 5
G 3
B 5
E x

this is much like the Robin Nolan chord except for the D string which is one fret lower. Then play the Dmi6 at the second fret B half diminished voicing much like RNT...

E x
A 2
D 3
G 2
B 3
E x

Back to that diminished chord for the A7, then I think he was using the B6/9 voicing that is just a few posts up from here, but I got away with the RNT voicing alright (that diminished was stressing me out so I took it easy on the Bb). Dennis didn't like the Bb7 at all, and we all know he's got way good ears so I trust him!

Anyway, pretty much like the RNT version except for that diminished chord and the Bb6/9 voicing. Try it, it gives really nice colour.

Cheers,

Kevin
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Postby justjack » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:05 am

kcox wrote:Dennis showed me a cool set of voicings for this ditty today, which is basically like the RNT changes except that instead of the typical A7 he plays a diminished like this...

E x
A 4
D 5
G 3
B 5
E x

this is much like the Robin Nolan chord except for the D string which is one fret lower. Then play the Dmi6 at the second fret B half diminished voicing much like RNT...


Many, many people play that diminished shape (for the benefit of all the RNT readers). It's often used because the 'A7' shape he uses is actually an A9, which includes that B natural. To many peoples ears, that's what clashes with the Bb in the melody.

While we're on the subject, it can be a fun thing to try building a solo (for a quick chorus probably at most) around just the RNT shape. Starting with the A9 at the fourth fret, you'd then move to the second, then back to the fourth, then fifth, then seventh (for Gm), then second, then fourth, then second. Plenty of 'wrong' notes to have fun with.
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Postby FSUGypsyJazz » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:07 am

I also use that first C diminshed voivcing instead of the A7 but they a veiw of the same voices. It is also charted that way in the Angelo Debarre Astuces book
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Postby FSUGypsyJazz » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:08 am

Sorry I meant C# diminished
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Postby boral » Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:58 am

Thank you so much for all the suggestions :D .
Regards
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