Chromatic Runs

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Chromatic Runs

Postby Rich » Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:26 pm

Ok..is there some kind of secret to these? I've been trying to do it using 4 fingers on my left hand for the first 4 frets then shifting the whole hand up and doing the same again, but it doesn't sound like a smooth run because there is a gap everytime I move my whole hand (hope that makes sense). Is this just a matter of practice?
From open A to A on the 5th fret of the E string sounds fine because there is no need to move the whole hand all u have to do is move down a string once at the 4th fret. But I can't seem to master the one string runs.
Any tips, advice very welcome.
THanks
Rich.
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Postby Djazz Nomad » Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:25 am

pratice,practice; this has to be the easiest to practice because even a complete numb-nut can work out where the notes are. :shock:
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Postby nwilkins » Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:21 pm

on one string it is easiest to do with one finger, and doesn't take an incredible amount of practice to get the timing down. Django does this in the J'Attendrai clip, and I have also seen lots of the current greats using juts one finger as well. When you have a chromatic run on more than one string it is a different story, but there is no gap while moving your hand because you play the open string on the string above (or below, if descending) as you reposition it.
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Postby Rich » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:06 pm

right i'm going to try the one finger technique on one string as i'm getting no where with the other methods. THanks for the tips.
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Postby djangology » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:28 pm

for example, on the Gary Potter live DVD that he released a few years back, he does the one finger slide quite a few times. there are quite a few really good examples on that film if its still possible to find it for sale... :-)
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Postby Meshugy » Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:20 pm

Hi Rich,

I think you should know that most Gypsy "chromatic" licks aren't really chromatic. For the fast stuff they usually have a lot of skips to make string changes easier. The most common is 4 notes per string which is easy because the picking is strictly alternate rest strokes. I have an example on my web site:

http://www.djangobooks.com/buy/Examples_2.1_and_2.2.pdf

As notated in the example, I use three fingers when descending and only two when ascending. In my experience, that's how most Gypsies do it!

Have fun!

-Michael

http://www.djangobooks.com/
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Postby felixcharlock » Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:03 pm

hi michael,
your unaccompanied django book is fantastic; i love it. django does indeed live! i had a few questions that you might be able to answer: how important is it to some of these passages to fret two notes on adjacent strings using one finger? to put this question into context, let me use the song 'tears' (which i am working on) as an example. for the opening cmin-eb6 chord passage you have indicated using fingers 1 & 2 to fret the notes on the a,d & g strings. i find this very awkward & much easier to fret with my 3 & 4 finger fretting the notes on the d & g strings. fyi, i don't have trouble holding down adjacent notes on the a & d string in the context of a big chord--say a full 6 note gypsy style 6/9 chord--but as with passages like 'tears' i seem to be having trouble. any thoughts on this? also (almost done i swear) when django played fingerstyle did he pluck chords using his right hand thumb, index, middle & ring fingers? (it sounds like he does that...) or did he strum with his thumb? or both? sorry for getting kinda off topic. thanx in advance for any insights.
cheers,
jesse
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Postby djangology » Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:19 am

i wont stop practicing that chromatic run until i have perfected the complete shepard tone scale into infinity... :twisted:
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Postby Meshugy » Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:47 am

felixcharlock wrote:hi michael,
how important is it to some of these passages to fret two notes on adjacent strings using one finger? to put this question into context, let me use the song 'tears' (which i am working on) as an example. for the opening cmin-eb6 chord passage you have indicated using fingers 1 & 2 to fret the notes on the a,d & g strings. i find this very awkward & much easier to fret with my 3 & 4 finger fretting the notes on the d & g strings. fyi, i don't have trouble holding down adjacent notes on the a & d string in the context of a big chord--say a full 6 note gypsy style 6/9 chord--but as with passages like 'tears' i seem to be having trouble. any thoughts on this?


My general policy with all these idiosyncratic Django/Gypsy techniques is that while they're definitly worth putting the time into, ultimately one can still make great music without them. Of course, the more of these techniques you choose not to employ, the less likely you're to achieve the "Gypsy sound." It doesn't mean you won't mature into a great guitarist. You're just choosing to stray from the proven path to success so you'll have to accept both the benefits and dangers of doing so.

I find "Tears" much easier to play with the 1 finger double stop. Since you've already had success employing that technique with the 6/9 voicings, my advice would be to stick with it on "Tears". I'm pretty sure Django played it the way I wrote it out. I think its fare to say that he was unable to play a standard minor bar chord with the root on the 5th string. On the recording he plays the bass note and then the chord, never at the same time. So I'm pretty sure he was jumping around to get all the notes. I used to play "Tears" with a standard C minor voicing but it never sounded totally right. Once I figured out the fingering in the book I really got that staccato swinging phrasing he has on the recording.

Although the 1 finger double stop is not absolutely necessary on "Tears," its worth learning because many of the other songs have passages which would be impossible to play without it. So I'd recommend putting in the time in now so the other pieces will be easier.


also (almost done i swear) when django played fingerstyle did he pluck chords using his right hand thumb, index, middle & ring fingers? (it sounds like he does that...) or did he strum with his thumb? or both? sorry for getting kinda off topic.


I think its safe to say that Django's fingerstyle technique is something not really worth worrying about. He kept it pretty simple. He definitly used all his fingers, but didn't develop the high level of finger independence that classical players have. But hell, he didn't need to...he was Django!

-Michael

http://www.djangobooks.com/
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Postby felixcharlock » Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:10 pm

thanks for the reply michael. i'm going to stick w/ the gypsy doublestop. i think i just need the repetition of practice, etc, etc. i was 'hearing' the song wrong in my head as well. i was holding the notes too long & not employing enough staccato. anyways, thanx. --jesse
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re:chromatic runs

Postby Brillo » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:45 pm

Regarding chromatic runs: Django NEVER skipped notes in his chromatic runs (I've transcribed over twenty-five of his solo's )
If you want an example of fingering check out "Astuces de la guitare Manouche" by Angelo Debarre and Sammy Daussat (Angelo also NEVER skips, I've transcribed 16 of his solo's)
Regarding Django's prowess for playing without a pick, listen to his unaccompanied version of "Tea for Two"or the intro of "In a sentimental mood", he was pretty much as competent with his right-hand as any classical guitarist in those days.
I hold Michael's work in high esteem but we I think we shouldn't generalise these matters too much, I know some gypsies like to cop out and NOT play truly chromatic, last sunday I spent almost seven hours in Rijswijk watching them do it.
My point is, if you like to play like Jan Limberger or Popi Basily, learn from them , do you like Django more then learn from him, there is no "gospel-truth". I try to teach all my students the value of individuality and going beyond the point of mere copying after they've mastered the basics. how much need is there for carbon-copies of Django or Stochelo ?
kind regards
Frans
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Re: re:chromatic runs

Postby Meshugy » Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:46 pm

Hi Frans....

Brillo wrote:Regarding chromatic runs: Django NEVER skipped notes in his chromatic runs


Which solos have you transcribed? It just depends on the situation. For example, in the first set of fast descending chromatic runs in "Improvisation #1" Django is playing a pure chromatic run.
(however, he does play the last D note twice with a pull off. )

But, the ascending chromatic passage on "J'Attendrai" from the "Jazz Hot" vid looks and sounds like 4 notes per string. I'm 95% sure, but I'm always open to another opinion. What do you think?


My point is, if you like to play like Jan Limberger or Popi Basily, learn from them , do you like Django more then learn from him, there is no "gospel-truth". I try to teach all my students the value of individuality and going beyond the point of mere copying after they've mastered the basics. how much need is there for carbon-copies of Django or Stochelo ?
kind regards


I agree completely!

Next time you're at the Rijswijk camp tell the Limbergers I said "hi."

Regards...

-Michael

http://www.djangobooks.com/
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Postby djangology » Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:53 pm

on the subject of skipping notes....

Django NEVER skipped notes in his chromatic runs


ive been playing around with using the rest stroke technique in chromatic runs and in the case of a chromatic runs that starts in first position on the A string (for example) and end on the 12th fret high E string i have noticed in the first half of the run, while using rest stroke technique, that playing 3 notes to a string is easier for me until i get to the high e string and then i alternate all the way up and hit every note.

just a thought. its an interesting thing to try for yourself as an experiment. "pure" chromatic runs are overrated anyways arent they?
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