Page 1 of 1

Synthetics scales

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:35 pm
by CHIVIASH
Hello every body !

First : I hope you will excuse my bad english because it is awfull (I'm surely going to make you laugh, and it is comprehesible :lol: ). But I'll do of my best to make me understand .
:wink:
So that, if you answer my question try to use simple words , not slang as I need to look in a dictionnery ...
Thank you

Well, I would like to know if you use those kind of scales in your play of gypsy jazz or jazz be-bop or any kind of jazz :

Hindou / Harmonic major / Persin / Spanish / Double harmonic / Major harmonic / Lydian augmented / Lydien dominant ...

There are many others but I've mentioned juste a few of them .

Best regards

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:16 pm
by Teddy Dupont
I haven't a clue what you are talking about but that's a quite brilliant sketch you are using for you avatar. :D

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:03 am
by jack
Lydian Dominant gets some use in gypsy jazz style playing, and I'm sure that it is used much more in bebop contexts. I'm not sure I'm familiar with the names you're using for a lot of these scales so examples of each scale might help. For instance, Lydian Dominant (a scale I know as Lydian b7) could be spelled: C D E F# G A Bb.

In general, I think you will find that most of these scales get used sparingly. I think in general, people are thinking more about arpeggios as building blocks for their solos anyways.

I also believe, you don't want to worry too much about scales or arpeggios. I hope people are more concerned about melody, than the scales. I'm guessing a lot of the players on this forum don't think about theoretical things when they are soloing. Although, if people have a tune where they love to incorporate the persian scale I'm all ears.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:51 am
by Phydeaux3
[quote="jack"]
I hope people are more concerned about melody, than the scales. /quote]

Hear Hear!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:10 pm
by Gmajor
Joe Pass alway's seems to get a mention these day's and why not. (Joe Pass you dont get Gigs playing scales learn some song's.keep Djangoin.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:46 pm
by CHIVIASH
Well, I already do thinking through arpeggios, but I saw those scales in a book of jazz harmony and I thought it could be intresting to explore them ...


for your information here are the scales in question :

Hindou C/D/E/F/G/Ab/Bb

Double harmonic C/Db/E/F/G/Ab/B

Spanish C/Db/E/F/G/Ab/Bb

Major harmonic C/D/E/F/G/Ab/B

Lydian augmented C/D/E/F#/G#/A/B


Thanks

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:05 pm
by Ganondorf
them scales are good. but how would you use them in an improvising situation?
It looks like you have done them all in the key of c (is this correct?)How would you use them while improvising in the key of c? Would the flats and sharps not clash?

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:42 pm
by CHIVIASH
Ganondorf wrote:them scales are good. but how would you use them in an improvising situation?



That is going to be my 2nd question :D , but before I need to find someone who is using them .

Ganondorf wrote:It looks like you have done them all in the key of c (is this correct?)


Yes I did it purposely in order to be easyer to compare .

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:25 pm
by clausci
CHIVIASH wrote:
Ganondorf wrote:them scales are good. but how would you use them in an improvising situation?



That is going to be my 2nd question :D , but before I need to find someone who is using them .

Ganondorf wrote:It looks like you have done them all in the key of c (is this correct?)


Yes I did it purposely in order to be easyer to compare .


Uhm, i am not a super expert of jazz improvising. buti think that in the case of these scales does 'nt have to do the root note of the scale with the tonality.
in some traditional music the scale Dm Harmonic is used on the tonality of A major ... so i think these scales are somthing like this(in the C starting example)...maybe the hindou could sound good on a C7+ chord so in F. the double harmonic could sound good on a G7 chord ,i think for these scales it depends a lot by the context of the tune. somebody correct me please if i have said bullshits....

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:17 pm
by Gmajor
Hey I'll tell you summut for free you are all talking a load of Ragas

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:04 pm
by Cattermole
clausci wrote: somebody correct me please if i have said bullshits....


I don't know if you have or you haven't, but I love that sentence.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:07 pm
by nwilkins
Ganondorf wrote: It looks like you have done them all in the key of c (is this correct?)How would you use them while improvising in the key of c? Would the flats and sharps not clash?


they are not in the key of C, they just happen to start on the note C for ease of comparison. For instance this scale is in the key of C:

DEFGABCD

and this scale is not (it is in F):

CDEFGABbC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:58 pm
by BluesBopHarry
Lydian augmented is a mode of melodic minor as are the Hindou and Lydian b7.
A melodic minor: A B C D E F# G#
C Lydian Augmented: C D E F# G# A B Third mode
E Hindou: E F# G# A B C D Fifth mode also called Mixo b6

As far as I know melodic minor (and it`s modes) is not used often in this style, though Bireli and some of the more modern players sometimes use them.
For the other scales I think is more or less the same.
In the jazz bop genre you will certainly hear them used, and so as much as Gypsy and other styles mix you`ll have an oportunity the play them and hear them played.
But as some said before, scales are not as important as arpeggios in this music and in the end what you want are beautiful melodies.
You might consider using the Jim Hall aproach of thinking about seven inside notes, (CDEFGAB in tyhe key of C) and five outside ones (Db, Eb Gb, Bb, Ab) and mix them to your taste. And always use your ears, they should dictate what you play.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:37 am
by CHIVIASH
BluesBopHarry wrote:Lydian augmented is a mode of melodic minor as are the Hindou and Lydian b7.
A melodic minor: A B C D E F# G#
C Lydian Augmented: C D E F# G# A B Third mode
E Hindou: E F# G# A B C D Fifth mode also called Mixo b6



Bravo, very good analyse .

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:32 am
by BluesBopHarry
Glad to help.