Seattle workshop

The first thirty years are the worst

Moderators: Zoot, Teddy Dupont

Seattle workshop

Postby justjack » Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:45 am

Just wondering if anyone attended the Horowitz workshop this past weekend. Any reviews? I'd be curious to know what he covered.
User avatar
justjack
Mad For It
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:40 pm
Location: Western Mass

Postby djangology » Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:04 pm

yeah, i am curious how it went also. i took a lesson from Michael last week, and it was extremely helpful for me. i was doing a few things wrong fundamentally, that i am embarrassed to talk about, but i am now beginning to adjust. :oops: most importantly, he gave me a lot of hints on how to approach the exercises in his gyspy picking book. i imagine the workshop was pretty enlightening to some people also... tell us how it went!
User avatar
djangology
 
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:52 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA

Postby Jan Primus » Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:42 pm

It was a good workshop. I attended both and I would have to say it was worth it. Michael is all about form. I am sure mine is lacking in crispness, but Michael didn't seem to find anything horribly wrong with it. That, or he was just being nice and didnt want to embarass me in front of the other lads. He gave us some interesting chords to work on. I must say, I find using the thumb in chords to be a major pain in the arse, and I was horrified when he told me just how prevalent they were. Time will tell if I am going to incorporate them into my playing or not...
I am still pleasantly surprised that he could write a grant for that and have it come off so very well. I admire that kind of chutzpa.
Good Job Michael.

Chad
User avatar
Jan Primus
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:42 pm
Location: Bellingham Washington

Postby justjack » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:19 am

From Chad: "I must say, I find using the thumb in chords to be a major pain in the arse, and I was horrified when he told me just how prevalent they were."

I'm with you; when it comes to those shapes, I'm...all thumbs. Any particular shapes he pointed out?
User avatar
justjack
Mad For It
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:40 pm
Location: Western Mass

Postby Jan Primus » Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:14 pm

One Chord, I think he said it was a G-6 was a particular bastars.

5
5
3
5
5
3 with your thumb

Geez oh Pete! My guitar has a really wide neck and my fingers are a bit stubby for that one. I could do it with a barr, but tring to wrap my thumb around doesnt work well for me.

Chad
User avatar
Jan Primus
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:42 pm
Location: Bellingham Washington

Postby nwilkins » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:13 pm

Many people play that form without using the bottom E, if they have small hands or big guitar necks. I play the similar major form

5
5
4
5
5
3

either by omitting the bottom E or by omitting the d string root octave and not using the thumb :) There are many ways to play the chords, and although the thumb is commonly used, if you can find a way to play the same voicings without the thumb then it really doesn't make much difference to the sound of your playing.
User avatar
nwilkins
 
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:02 am

Postby bwilkins » Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:12 pm

This business about thumbing the E string is a revelation. I do it all the time on my Martin. But the neck is indeed too wide on my D'A. Not to mention, early signs of arthritis just doesn't give me that much flexibility any more. Besides, dont you find that full 6-string chords are often too much, too muddy sounding for this music? IMHO

bw
bwilkins
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:59 pm
Location: Maine

Postby TedGottsegen » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:50 pm

bwilkins wrote:This business about thumbing the E string is a revelation. I do it all the time on my Martin. But the neck is indeed too wide on my D'A. Not to mention, early signs of arthritis just doesn't give me that much flexibility any more.


Lots of French players use a bar-type form. (note - the numbers indicate the finger used)

Code: Select all
Gmaj6/9
E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|-----|-----|--4--|-----|
G|-----|--2--|-----|-----|
D|-----|-----|--3--|-----|
A|-----|-----|--3--|-----|
E|--1--|-----|-----|-----|


Although as my compadre nwilkins write, some omit the low E altogether and just play the form:

Code: Select all
Gmaj6/9
E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|-----|-----|--3--|-----|
G|-----|--1--|-----|-----|
D|-----|-----|--2--|-----|
A|-----|-----|--2--|-----|
E|--X--|-----|-----|-----|


I could give you a laundry list of players from France, Holland and Germany who use this form.

edit - Sorry, going into the form (#2 - no bass note) above from a V chord is so easy and sounds so tight. Try it in a II-V-I in G (Amin7 | D7 | G6/9) with the inversion above.

bwilkins wrote:Besides, dont you find that full 6-string chords are often too much, too muddy sounding for this music? IMHO
bw


But you don't hit 6 note chords for every chord you play. In Samois you Gypsies hitting these chords more often than not. Even the original Hot Club used four five and six note chords. It's just one more piece in the puzzle of getting a "correct" sound.

Best,

Ted
TedGottsegen
Moderator
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:51 am
Location: Pioneer Square

Postby Meshugy » Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:41 pm

Hi,

When I was studying with the Gypsies I was pretty surprised to find all these strange chord fingerings using the thumb and one finger double stops. But, like most techniques the Gypsies use, they do it for a number of really good reasons:

1) You simply can't play many of those voicings any other way.

2) About a dozen of these voicings work together as an efficient and ergonomic system that allow you to change chords quickly with ease.

3) You can achieve a number of "special effects" by using the thumb to hold down the root while changing the tones above.

As Ted mentioned, most Gypsy style rhythm playing is 5 or 6 note chords with the 3 note voicings being used mostly as passing chords.

When most people realize this they have a look of horror on their face. "Can I play it some other way?" is usually the question. My advice is that if you're really dedicated to just playing the Gypsy style then put in the time and learn all the idiomatic chord voicings. It definitely gives you that "Gypsy sound." If you play a lot of styles then its probably OK to use some other fingerings or voicings. As long as you get the right hand correct you'll still sound fairly Gypsyish.

-Michael

http://www.djangobooks.com/
Meshugy
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:02 pm
Location: The Emerald City

Postby justjack » Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:58 pm

Ah-straight from the source! Thanks, Michael. What I was about to add was that for me the 'right' shape is most often dictated (or at least suggested) by the chords surrounding it; good voice-leading will make some shapes seem (or sound) much more natural. Ted's ii-V-I is a great example. Obviously, you don't always neccesarily want that sound, but it's made a good rule of thumb for me.
User avatar
justjack
Mad For It
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:40 pm
Location: Western Mass

Postby bwilkins » Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:38 am

Good stuff, one and all. It's sure great to have Michael sitting in. And you Brits of course, having years of eye-witness experience.

Like every worthwhile endeavor in life: the more you learn, the more you learn how much ya still gotta learn.

Michael & Ted: About those 'wierd' voicings you refer to, Is Colin's book a good resource for them? For those of us stuck in places where we never get to see this stuff played live.

edit: Just got a flyer in the mail telling me Mehling and his HCSF will be down in Orono next month!

bw
bwilkins
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:59 pm
Location: Maine

Postby TedGottsegen » Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:47 am

bwilkins wrote:Michael & Ted: About those 'wierd' voicings you refer to, Is Colin's book a good resource for them? For those of us stuck in places where we never get to see this stuff played live.


Colin's book is the best source for all of these different chords. Plus, his arrangements are all standard Gypsy as played on record and in Samois. Not to mention the fact that you can take something that you learned on tune A, switch the key and play it on tune B - a wealth of great information.

Michael will starting a book on rhythm shortly and if his first two are any indication it's going to be great with lots of different turnarounds, inversions, shapes, voicings, etc so keep watch on http://www.djangobooks.com . I know that both books will be well worth having at your fingertips.

Best,

Ted
TedGottsegen
Moderator
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:51 am
Location: Pioneer Square

Postby bwilkins » Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:57 pm

MANY THANKS!!

bw
bwilkins
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:59 pm
Location: Maine

Postby justjack » Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:05 am

Also keep an eye out for Colin's volume two. For what it's worth, after writing Michael about his upcoming rhythm book, it seems his books will focus more on the how side of playing rhythm, rather than chord charts for specific tunes. This, I think, is something that's sorely needed (at least by me). Can't wait to see it. Colin's book is great for quality charts, and while he does include chord forms, he doesn't really get into different rhythmic patterns or 'tricks'. Moral? Get 'em both!
User avatar
justjack
Mad For It
 
Posts: 1855
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:40 pm
Location: Western Mass

Postby Jan Primus » Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:38 pm

justjack wrote: Can't wait to see it. Colin's book is great for quality charts, and while he does include chord forms, he doesn't really get into different rhythmic patterns or 'tricks'. Moral? Get 'em both!


Moral?
I think not.
Common sense?
Yes of course.

Chad
User avatar
Jan Primus
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:42 pm
Location: Bellingham Washington

Next

Return to How to play Gypsy Jazz guitar

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

cron