Improv question

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Improv question

Postby Ricardo » Wed May 31, 2006 2:58 pm

When playing over Dinah, i seem to be able to play over the entire A section using G major arps as a basis and it sounds right, then switching to E minor arps for the B section. Is this correct, as there is obviously more than just G major chords in the A section? It sounds fine but i need to get my head around the theory a bit. When i solo over I'll see you in my dreams, this rule doesn't seem to apply and i have to change to the arp of each chord. Any advice most welcome.
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Postby Djangoslefthandman » Wed May 31, 2006 5:53 pm

Big topic, but in summary :
Dinah changes are pretty static around the key centres (ie diatonic harmonisation - scale chords) G major and its relative minor E (6th of the G scale). Most of the G major scale notes will sound good most of the time.
In My Dreams has secondary dominants (check out the cycle of 5ths) which suggest different key centres. The 1st D7 can be thought of as the harmonised 5th note of G major (implying an F# note as apposed to the tunes key centre F), G7 as C major (implying an B note) and so on. Just playing an F scale won't cut it, you need to adjust for the changing harmony. Hitting the right harmony notes as you move through your solos gives your lines a sence of momentum and form which is satisfying for you and your listeners. Try playing just those notes as whole/half notes against the harmony to get the effect (known as guide tone lines).
Note Django used a lot of broken chord tone lines, the guide tone lines give an indication of how to connect these together.
Best of luck
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Postby nwilkins » Wed May 31, 2006 7:57 pm

just in case Ray used too much theoryspeak above, this is what it boils down to:

the major scale can be used to build a set of chords. If you take a C major scale and use every second note to make a chord you get a Cmajor 7. If you do this starting on the second note of the C major scale you get a Dmin7, starting on the fifth note a G7 etc.

So Dmin7 and G7 are both in the key of C, which means they are chords formed from the C major scale, and you can use that scale/Cmajor arps over them generally. Dinah is basically constructed of chords all from the key of Gmajor, so that is why you can solo over them with G major arps.

I'll see you in My Dreams changes key centres - it uses chords from one key then switches to chords from another etc. So you need to change what you are playing a bit more.

Hope that helps.
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Postby Djangoslefthandman » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:48 am

Thanks Neil,
On relection a bit heavy going, bebop background....
Ricardo - hunt me down at Gossington, I'm a bearded lefty (guitar).
Cheers Guys
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Postby Swing This! » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:26 pm

For I'll See You in My Dreams, I aproach the first section with Bb major or F major arpeggios...then use dominant or diminished arpeggios for dominant 7 changes thru D7/G7/C7

Cheers,

Phil
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Postby Ricardo » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:04 pm

Great stuff -thanks all of you. I find that sometimes, suddenly a penny will drop which allows me another surge of development. This forum is a great resource. As i progress, i'll try to start answering some of the questions as well as being constantly on the take! I have been playing for about 15 years and only discovered gypsy jazz about a year and a half ago. My rite of passage came this month when i officially clipped off my long right hand nails and kissed goodbye to all those years of fingerstyle blues.I hope Gossington will be my crossroads.
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Postby justjack » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:08 am

Ricardo,

For I'll See You... I'd strongly recommend studying Django's classic solo. You'll be sure to pick up how he follows the changes, and more. It's a great lesson!

Best,
Jack.
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Postby Ricardo » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:10 pm

You're right about that, i can play the Django solo with a few bum notes here and there now, but i need to master some sort of improv for when my mind blanks mid tune. It amazes me how he could pull a solo like that out of the bag -totally melodic from start to finish.
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Postby Gmajor » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:46 pm

Try using Dminor arp like in dinah you use the relative the eminor to gmajor .also try D minor pentatonic scale.which if you look at the notes will be fmajor pentatonic in see u my dreams. Before starting to impro look at the chord structure of the music to see if it stay's within the scale (DIATONIC)if we look at Harmonized Fmajor scale and you build a chord using the 3rds you will have fmajor gminor aminor bflatmajor cdominant7 dminor eminor7b5 or dim chord.in Jazz you can substitute chords and also many chords have the same notes depending were the bass note placed.example Gm6= C9 or Em7b5,Gb+7b9,Bb6b5,Db9can be Eb9sus. G6=Em7.Gmajor9 and Bminor7 are the same chord. sorry to go on but the important point Im trying to make is that the chords are the main part of impro Joe pass quote I just look at Major Minor and Dominant he put dim in the same bag as dom chord's. like most jazz music where the composer as changed the chord structure of common tune to fill it outmore. so gypsy jazz musicians change the major chord's to major6 or minor6. by doing so give you more opertunaties to impro.have fun hope you managed not to fall asleep.
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Postby Gmajor » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:35 pm

Hello again if you like arpeggios consider looking at this which may help you at B section of the tune the turn around usually domin7 chords .for example A7. The Gmajor7 arp creates an A7/9/11/sound a famous jazz guitarist like this one and it wasnt the main man Joe Pass.Also The Cmaj7 creates a A7#9,( A9).
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Postby djangology » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:39 am

We all have our own way of thinking over this tune.

For me, i think of the whole tune modulating between F -- Gm . I know that Gm is the ii chord in the key of F and that it is the vi chord in the key of Bb. That is a beautiful relationship. I also know that F7 is the V chord of Bb and that Dm is the vi chord in key of F and that A7 is the beautiful SECONDARY DOMINANT ( the V of the vi). (note: G7 is the other secondary dominant in F.)

Altogether, through the form, I loosely follow a modulation like this: 1st half ( Bb -- F -- Gm (over the D7) -- F (over the G7 to C7) ) then 2nd half (Bb -- Bbm -- F -- Gm -- F -- F7 -- F )

Image[/img]
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