Gypsy Fire

The first thirty years are the worst

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Gypsy Fire

Postby roineking » Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:53 am

i just received the new release from django books and I must say that this is by far the best gj instructional book avaliable.gypsy picking is the second best but this one contains much more licks and phrases.
i have wrembel's book, nolan's, l'esprit,the debarre-book,jorgensen, cosimini and so on but this one is a must!
/roinald from norway
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Postby djangology » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:57 pm

Wrembels book is still the most fundamental and important book. The Gypsy Fire book and the Gypsy Picking books are perfect supplements. All 3 are a must have.

The Gypsy Fire book is organized and layed out really nice. I am having an easy time going through the exercises. Its worth far more than it costs I think. There are some very important ideas in there.

If you are a beginner learning to solo, I still think Robin Nolans licks books and Wrembels book are the best, followed by Romanes l'Esprit Manouche.
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Postby roineking » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:42 pm

For me wrembels book is the worst of them all. No useful licks and only for absolute beginners.Nolan should stick to his play-along books and leave the other areas to mr. horowitz who focuses on the correct pick-strokes and fingerings.
/roinald
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Postby Elliot » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:31 am

I didn't like what I saw of Wrembels book as well - all scale diagrams, and I can go elsewhere for that.

I'll probably end up getting the GF book, but I'm against the idea of 'lick' books. I think they are the shortest way to unoriginality. I'd rather learn about what I'm doing and watch it being applied in the Django Definitive Collection Book. That's why I'm sticking with L'Esprit Manouche.

But I'm lucky because one of my good friends who teaches jazz can call off chords by ear, and can watch any video and tell me what the guy is doing -and he doesn't even play guitar! An amazing musican...
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Postby BachelorNo2 » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:05 pm

I found Wrembel's book difficult to digest. The scale diagrams are helpful and he obviously knows what he's talking about. But I didn't think it was that accessible.

The books that have really improved my playing are the Angelo Debarre Sammy Dusat, Astuces books. Both volumes have really improved my understanding and jazz vocab!

The cosimini books are great for pumping out the chords for songs.
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Postby djangology » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:00 pm

All of you need to take a look at Wrembels book. Wrembels book is the ONLY one that actually teaches you to "organically" solo. Its the most important book if you ask me. Specifically, it teaches you pattern based soloing by describing in detail his approach note methods. Also, he outlines very well the 3 position soloing method for gypsy jazz.

Wrembels book is THE ONLY book that will actually teach you something OTHER THAN licks. The l'Espriit Manouche book will teach you a soloing method also, but its a bit harder to digest. Wrembels book is short and sweet.

Also, if you cannot see the importance of what Robin (or Andreas) teaches in their licks books, then you need a second look. Its not what what you "literally" see in the books that is immediately important. It is what you see underneath the licks that really will give you a foundation.

You have to spend some TIME with all these books and you cant just brush through them and then send out your judgement to everyone on this list.
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Postby BachelorNo2 » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:19 am

I agree with your points on the Wrembel book, but what I was trying to point out was that the material within the book is quite difficult to get a grasp of, it's clearly not accessible to a relative newcomer to the genre (like me :lol: ) But that's not to say that I don't appreciate the book. my judgment is one of complete subjectivity.
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Postby Matt_McG » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:14 pm

From my point of view the Wrembel book is a wonderful resource.

Most of the book doesn't teach anything that you can't learn in other more straight ahead jazz texts. But his 3 position system (as opposed to 5 or more with CAGED or 3-note-per-string system) is simple and straightforward and his fingerings for the arpeggios very logical.

He makes it easy to get soloing over a 'gypsy' style tune with very limited resources and to improvise rather than just run 'licks'.

It may not be the easiest book -- it certainly doesn't get you sounding distinctively 'gypsy' immediately -- but I am finding it an enormous help with my improvising in general whether gypsy or with more straight-ahead swing style playing.[/i]
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Postby Elliot » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:50 pm

djangology wrote:All of you need to take a look at Wrembels book. Wrembels book is the ONLY one that actually teaches you to "organically" solo. Its the most important book if you ask me. Specifically, it teaches you pattern based soloing by describing in detail his approach note methods. Also, he outlines very well the 3 position soloing method for gypsy jazz.

Wrembels book is THE ONLY book that will actually teach you something OTHER THAN licks. The l'Espriit Manouche book will teach you a soloing method also, but its a bit harder to digest. Wrembels book is short and sweet.

Also, if you cannot see the importance of what Robin (or Andreas) teaches in their licks books, then you need a second look. Its not what what you "literally" see in the books that is immediately important. It is what you see underneath the licks that really will give you a foundation.

You have to spend some TIME with all these books and you cant just brush through them and then send out your judgement to everyone on this list.



If it teaches you a direct method to 'organically solo' based on three positions, as you say, it certainly sounds valuable, and it wouldn't hurt to buy it, certainly.

But didn't I see scale diagrams for 11ths and 13ths? Doesn't this confuse things - extensions that belong more to bebop and have no place in music of this era?

I'm not challenging you - just asking a question.
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Postby justjack » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:50 pm

Elliot wrote:...didn't I see scale diagrams for 11ths and 13ths? Doesn't this confuse things - extensions that belong more to bebop and have no place in music of this era?


Hi Elliot,

Partly it depends on how you define the music: players of this era do use more modern extensions, because it's not a museum piece-it's a tradition, certainly, but in the best cases, to me, people are more interested in pushing forward with it instead of simply recreating an older sound. An 11th might fall into this area, 13ths have always been a part of it to me...at any rate, I wouldn't be surprised to see Stephane include some more modern vocabulary, as he's someone who really makes the music speak to today's audiences.

Best,
Jack.
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Postby djangology » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:07 am

yeah, I am not sure why Stephane put 11ths and 13ths in the book. perhaps there was a reason why he thought they needed to be in there but I cannot guess.... :-|
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Postby Elliot » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:28 am

This seems to be a feature of many Mel Bay books - they tend to throw everything plus the kitchen sink at you at once.

I've been wondering how Gypsies teach each other by ear and demonstration. If 3 positions is all that is ultimately required to solo well, whether it is 3 of the most easily reachable, adjacent and symmetrical patterns within the CAGED - CAG or AGE, etc, or spanning the length across all of CAGED I'll be eating them for breakfast lunch and dinner, to be sure, at least for starters. A good clue to how Django was able to develop so rapidly, perhaps?

Thanks for clueing me in about this, Dj - I would never have been aware of it from just browsing through the book, and would have missed perhaps one of the most important things to know, from an authentic Gypsy approach.

Can't wait to wail! :D
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Postby joef » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:59 am

Elliot wrote: But didn't I see scale diagrams for 11ths and 13ths? Doesn't this confuse things - extensions that belong more to bebop and have no place in music of this era?


Django plays a lot of tunes from the 1910s, 20's and 30s, which use suspensions and 13ths as part of the melody. So there is nothing modern about using a 13th, in fact if you don't you won't even be playing the head correctly :-) Same for the sus notes , for example in the melody of All of Me.
The problem is, a lot of this music has been dumbed down and reduced to a series of basic arpeggios chained together, and subtleties of chord sequence and original melody have been stripped away. The melodies of even the early jazz tunes have notes which are 6ths,9th, sus 3rds, 13ths and of course major 7ths of the harmony chord.

Surely one of Django's characteristics is his use of the extension notes? He uses the 13th a lot.

regards

Joe
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Postby Agent » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:42 pm

Stephane's an amazing teacher with a unique, bold approach to the music. What he teaches about timing can open your ears to amazing subtleties and his ideas on building solos are very fertile.
Gush aside, however, there's hardly anything on learning tunes or playing changes.
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Postby SwingOpi » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:44 am

joef wrote: So there is nothing modern about using a 13th, in fact if you don't you won't even be playing the head correctly :-)



And of course it´s a good effect over an normal dominat chord. Same for the 9.

And to the mordern stuff debate, Bach had written some pieces where he used blue notes, long time before the term Blues was born!!!



Lačho drom, mo phral.
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