Indifference

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Indifference

Postby lnb » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:39 am

the other day i heard a bal musette type waltz played called indifference and was informed django played this tune......did he and where can i hear him do it.
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Postby nwilkins » Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:07 pm

I don't believe that Django ever played this, although it is a great and popular tune. Incidentally, you can find a pretty comprehensive list of Django's recordings of different tunes on Francois Rousseau's website:

http://www.djangomontreal.com/doc/SongIndex.htm

and a recording session list here:

http://www.djangomontreal.com/doc/Disco28.htm
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Postby Teddy Dupont » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:55 pm

Django had no real interest in musette or waltzes. He played them before his accident in order to earn money and get experience in the only places that were available to him - Bal Musette dives.

There still seems to be a misapprehension that because musette waltzes are now an integral part of gypsy jazz, Django must have played them. He was a jazz guitarist and he played jazz fashioned in his own unique style. I think he would have been deeply affronted if anyone had suggested anything to the contrary.
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Postby nwilkins » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:01 pm

I think the notion that Django was connected with waltzes comes more from his supposed authorship of Montagne Ste Genevieve and Chez Jaquet, than from his early recordings (of which many people are unaware).

Teddy, how would you classify Baro Ferret's so called Bebop waltzes? Progressive jazz, or just weird?
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Postby Teddy Dupont » Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:14 pm

nwilkins wrote:Teddy, how would you classify Baro Ferret's so called Bebop waltzes? Progressive jazz, or just weird?


That's an excellent question and the short answer is I'm not hundred percent sure what they were. I very much admire Baro's originality and technical ability but I do find elements of his playing tend to grate on me. The story is that he got so fed up with trying to keep pace with Django who was forever moving on, he decided to create a distinctive, non-competitive style of his own which he duly did with great aplomb.

If I had to take sides, I would probably say it was more weird than anything else but since I do not want to alienate certain people whose views I respect, I will instead give the politician's response that it was quite bop orientated/progressive but it was also remarkably idiosyncratic. To me, these waltzes do sound like Baro is consciously trying to do something overtly different to Django within certain obvious stylistic limitations.
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Postby stublag » Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:26 am

Teddy Dupont wrote:Django had no real interest in musette or waltzes. He played them before his accident in order to earn money and get experience in the only places that were available to him - Bal Musette dives.

There still seems to be a misapprehension that because musette waltzes are now an integral part of gypsy jazz, Django must have played them. He was a jazz guitarist and he played jazz fashioned in his own unique style. I think he would have been deeply affronted if anyone had suggested anything to the contrary.


Teddy
Though you may be right about Djangos indifference to waltzes(though remember that Gus Viseur was a good friend of Djangos)i think you underestimate the influence that they had on his style and phrasing
Recently i've been working through many of Django's solos--its amazing just how many times those incredibly long triplet phrases come up;as we know these triplets were one of the stylisitic traits of Djangos playing; they are also archetypal in Musette waltzes.
This use of these extended triplet phrases was almost unheard of in the American jazz of Djangos time--(with the possible exceptions of Earl Hines and Art Tatum)
Django certainly didn't get them from Louis Armstrong either.
I really think they derive from all that early experience playing musette.

Compare the classic long triplet phrase in the last part of the A section of Montagne St-Genevieve--its identical to many of the phrases in Djangos jazz solos(Blues Minor for example)
BTW.... maybe thats the closest we'll ever get to proof of his authorship of that waltz.
Stu

PS--off to Paris tomorrow to pick up my lovely new guitar!!
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Postby felixcharlock » Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:23 pm

Interesting musings there, Stu. I always think of waltzes when Django plays 3's against 4's. To me, that's the real essence of jazz. Nothing swings quite like a triplet against a 4/4 beat. Whether it's Django or Bird or Tatum or Tupac. It's just simply...in layman's terms...to speak eloquently: "THE SHIT"

What kind of new guitar are you buying?
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Postby Cuimean » Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:44 pm

I read an interview with Boulou Ferre in which he described Django as a pope and Matelot and Baro as his bishops. I like this description; it shows that the style known now as "gypsy jazz" had its foundation laid out by Django but is also informed by the contributions of Baro (the jazz waltzes) and Matelot (the folkier elements).
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Postby Teddy Dupont » Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:08 am

stublag wrote:Though you may be right about Djangos indifference to waltzes(though remember that Gus Viseur was a good friend of Djangos)i think you underestimate the influence that they had on his style and phrasing

Django's style was made up of many disparate influences including musette/waltzes but I am less convinced as to the significance of this particular element. You would surely agree Stu, the fact that Django never included a gypsy jazz style waltz in the 800 or so recordings he made speaks for itself in terms of his interests. Neither have I read of him ever including one at his concerts or gigs.

stublag wrote:Compare the classic long triplet phrase in the last part of the A section of Montagne St-Genevieve--its identical to many of the phrases in Djangos jazz solos(Blues Minor for example)
BTW.... maybe thats the closest we'll ever get to proof of his authorship of that waltz.

I have major doubts about whether Django composed any of those waltzes in their entirety. I think it is quite possible they are a compilation and amalgamation of some of his ideas put together by Baro and Matelo Ferret with their own quirky additions. However, I agree that if he did truly compose one of them then it is "Montague St-Genevieve". The phrasing of this is pure Reinhardt.
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