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Dark Eyes Bb Chord

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:21 am
by Campus Five
I was listening to the '41 version of Dark Eyes, and not hearing the Bb chord in bars 7 and 8, but rather hearing a simple Dm.

Is the Bb chord a new alteration, sort of like all those ii-V's people put in minor swing, or was it there the whole time?

Dark Eyes Bb

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:23 pm
by fmason
Another thing I've noticed about Dark Eyes:

The Bb chord seems to come "early" for the melody. When you finally get to playing Bb and F notes (1/5 of Bb) in the melody, you are already on the Gm! Of course this works because Bb=3rd of Gm and F=dom 7th of G. So it creates a Gm7 feel. When teaching the song to my friend on bass he kept trying to linger on the Bb for this reason.

My Guess:
The Bb is probably a fairly modern interpretation of a very old song that had 3 or even 2 chords originally.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:33 pm
by kcox
I'm not sure about that, I've heard some "traditional"--i.e. not jazz--groups play it with the Bb.

Of course, they were gadjos and migh thave picked it up from django.

Kevin

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:49 pm
by Campus Five
I'm sure that Bb chord is in fakebooks and sad to say, most jazz musicians just read straight out of that thing with no second thought. There's a fairly famous error on "All the Things You Are" (I think) in the real books and you can immediately tell when somebody doesn't actually know the tune and is just reading.

As far as the trad groups, they might have found it on the jazz et chansons page or in a fakebook.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:30 pm
by TedGottsegen
I actually learned the tune with an A#7 and was told by someone who learned a lot from Gypsies told me that the correct chord is Bb because it is implied (as to where it is implied...I forget). I don't know. In hindsight I find that the Bb sounds right to me, but I never hang on it too long anyway because I cycle down to the Gminor.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:00 am
by kcox
Ted, that is either one funny typo or one funny smartass comment.

Cheers,

Kevin

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:33 pm
by boral
It is funny, I have same problem with this chord. I use the playback from Robin Nolan book and IMHO the chord does not seem to fit . I have seen this played with a BbM7and other chords...it looks like it is the Fa note that is "wrong"...I'm looking for an inversion or something else that sounds nicer. Any comments?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:57 pm
by kcox
Ditto to the Robin Nolan Bb6/9 not working well at all. Whenever I try playing that along with anyone else it sounds like garbage/sticks out like a sore thumb. My only solution thus far has been to just slide the A7 up, which works fine for all my jam needs.

Kevin

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:11 pm
by nwilkins
yeah, a Bb6/ Bb6/9 or Bb7 works best - for Bb6/9 don't use the RNT book voicing but rather this one:

8
8
7
8
8
6

Sub chords that work well going to the Gm6 in this tune are D7b9 or Ebdim

Re: Dark Eyes Bb Chord

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:08 pm
by kimmo
Campus Five wrote:I was listening to the '41 version of Dark Eyes, and not hearing the Bb chord in bars 7 and 8, but rather hearing a simple Dm.


You're right, there's no Bb in '41, it's really just Dm instead. However, the '47 version - the most famous solo, quoted by Bireli, Stochelo, Dorado... - does have that Bb.

Kimmo
http://www.jazzpartout.com

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:13 am
by kcox
Dennis showed me a cool set of voicings for this ditty today, which is basically like the RNT changes except that instead of the typical A7 he plays a diminished like this...

E x
A 4
D 5
G 3
B 5
E x

this is much like the Robin Nolan chord except for the D string which is one fret lower. Then play the Dmi6 at the second fret B half diminished voicing much like RNT...

E x
A 2
D 3
G 2
B 3
E x

Back to that diminished chord for the A7, then I think he was using the B6/9 voicing that is just a few posts up from here, but I got away with the RNT voicing alright (that diminished was stressing me out so I took it easy on the Bb). Dennis didn't like the Bb7 at all, and we all know he's got way good ears so I trust him!

Anyway, pretty much like the RNT version except for that diminished chord and the Bb6/9 voicing. Try it, it gives really nice colour.

Cheers,

Kevin

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:05 am
by justjack
kcox wrote:Dennis showed me a cool set of voicings for this ditty today, which is basically like the RNT changes except that instead of the typical A7 he plays a diminished like this...

E x
A 4
D 5
G 3
B 5
E x

this is much like the Robin Nolan chord except for the D string which is one fret lower. Then play the Dmi6 at the second fret B half diminished voicing much like RNT...


Many, many people play that diminished shape (for the benefit of all the RNT readers). It's often used because the 'A7' shape he uses is actually an A9, which includes that B natural. To many peoples ears, that's what clashes with the Bb in the melody.

While we're on the subject, it can be a fun thing to try building a solo (for a quick chorus probably at most) around just the RNT shape. Starting with the A9 at the fourth fret, you'd then move to the second, then back to the fourth, then fifth, then seventh (for Gm), then second, then fourth, then second. Plenty of 'wrong' notes to have fun with.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:07 am
by FSUGypsyJazz
I also use that first C diminshed voivcing instead of the A7 but they a veiw of the same voices. It is also charted that way in the Angelo Debarre Astuces book

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:08 am
by FSUGypsyJazz
Sorry I meant C# diminished

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:58 am
by boral
Thank you so much for all the suggestions :D .
Regards
Antonio